Page 1 of 30 
 
Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Lillian Lorraine Iyall Chappell 
December 12, 1980 
Cassette 1 
 
 
Speaker 1  00:00 
This copy was produced for preservation and reference use only from original material in Special 
Collections of the University of Washington Libraries. Further duplication of any kind for any 
purpose is not permitted without permission. Intellectual property rights, including copyright, 
belong to the authors or their legal heirs and assigns. If the material is still under copyright, 
permission to publish may be necessary and should be sought from the owners of such rights. 
 
Winona Weber  00:27 
Well, I keep calling you-- I keep-- I think of you as Lillian Iyall. Where were you-- you were 
born at Toppenish. Did you spend much of your childhood there, or did you...?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  00:48 
We lived there for two years, and then we moved to Nisqually. 
 
Winona Weber  00:53 
OK, that was when your father-- did-- was that when your father got your that acreage from your 
grandmother?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  00:59 
Yeah. She gave-- well, she didn't really give it to him. She sold it to him for, you know, a little 
bit. But it had a big house on it, and he had a lot of kids.  
 
Winona Weber  01:18 
Were you the youngest?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  01:20 
No, I had two younger brothers.  
 
Winona Weber  01:22 
OK, Daniel and Albert, huh?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  01:24 
And they were born over in Nisqually. They call them Coast Indians. [They laugh.]  
Page 2 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  01:31 
Big difference.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  01:32 
They call them our Coast Indians, you know? 
 
Winona Weber  01:35 
You're a Yakama Indian, and they're Coast Indians [laughs]. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  01:38 
Plateau Indian, I guess. 
 
Winona Weber  01:44 
OK, you said your mother spent a long time in boarding school. Did she do any of the more 
traditional Indian handiwork, then? Did she do basketry and that type of thing?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  02:04 
No. 
 
Winona Weber  02:05 
That's what I thought. Well, how would she fill her day, like, what would she do? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  02:16 
You mean as a youngster, or as a...? 
 
Winona Weber  02:20 
As a young mother.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  02:21 
Young mother. Sewing, cooking, canning, cleaning house. 
 
Winona Weber  02:29 
What was your father doing when you lived over here in Nisqually? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  02:34 
Well, he was back and forth between Nisqually and Yakima. He had horses, and he had property 
in Yakima that he farmed out. And then at that time, he was working on this Cowlitz claim. He 
spent a lot of time going to Washington, D.C. 
 
Winona Weber  03:03 
What was that Cowlitz claim? I've heard of it, but I'm not sure what it was.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  03:07 
Well, the Cowlitz Indians were never awarded a reservation, were never given a reservation. So 
they were entitled to a... what do you call it? 
Page 3 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  03:23 
A settlement?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  03:23 
Yeah. So he, along with a couple of others, helped get that started way back in about 1913, or 
maybe even earlier than that, 1911. My sister Mary was born in 1930, I think. And he was back 
there on that congressional business at the time she was born. 
 
Winona Weber  03:52 
[Crosstalk.] Well, if they weren't giving a reservation-- weren't given a reservation to go to, 
where did most of the Cowlitz Indians go, then? Did they just get scattered? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  04:06 
Some of them lived along the Cowlitz River, there in Cowlitz County. They lived up towards the 
mountain, Mount Rainier-- not Mount Rainier, in between Mount Rainier and Mount St. Helens. 
And around Randall, and... Geez, I wish I had a map. 
 
Winona Weber  04:33 
All those little towns that were really ashed on, seems like.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  04:38 
Yeah, that was all Cowlitz country. And the Indians, they kind of migrated back and forth with 
the seasons from the coast clear over to Idaho, you know, picking berries and hops and, I guess, 
working in... like, picking potatoes and things like that. And they went clear over into Idaho, and 
then they'd come back again. 
 
Winona Weber  05:07 
How much education did your mother have when she was...? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  05:13 
She went more or less when they felt like it [laughs]. 
 
Winona Weber  05:21 
Really?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  05:21 
Her mother-- I mean, her step mother wasn't-- her mother-- her stepmother was uneducated, 
herself. So I guess it-- every so often she'd say, "Do you want to go back to Fort Simcoe?" And 
she and her little sister, who is my aunt that lives out on Beacon Hill, would say, "Well, yes, we 
might like to go," you know? And so she used to say that she had three years. Let's see, was it 
three? No, six years.  
 
Winona Weber  05:54 
Yeah, that sounds more likely. 
 
Page 4 of 30 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  05:56 
Six years. My dad was the one that had three years of schooling, about, altogether. 
 
Winona Weber  06:03 
Six years is pretty good. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  06:07 
So she kind of... You know, sometimes, if they... I suppose, depending on how they felt, or how 
the family felt, or what they were doing... 
 
Winona Weber  06:20 
Did your mother consider education really important? Was she always telling you...? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  06:25 
Yes, she did, for us. Very. It was the most important thing in our lives. 
 
Winona Weber  06:32 
So how many of your brothers and sisters went quite far in school? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  06:40 
Let's see. Well, Ray graduated from Wapato High School before they moved over here. Well, in 
fact, he graduated that year. He stayed there to graduate, finish out the year. And then Evelyn 
went to Chemawa and graduated, and then she went to business college in Olympia after we 
moved over here. Archie was the one that never did finish high school. He went to Chemawa, 
didn't like it, came home, and went to work in the woods, and was a logger. And that's all he's 
done, all his life. I mean, from logger-- from being a logger, to working in a mill down in 
Raymond. And Ben went to Chemawa, and he graduated. And that was all the training he had, 
except what he got on the surface. And then Jack, Jack and I graduated from Olympia High 
School, and Jack didn't go any further. Then I went on to business college. I didn't graduate, 
either, because I got a job, but... 
 
Winona Weber  07:46 
But you graduated from high school [crosstalk]. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  07:48 
Yeah, the key, the main thing, she wanted us to get through-- 
 
Winona Weber  07:52 
--was at least high school.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  07:53 
--[?at least?] high school. And Mary went-- she graduated from Chemawa, and then she went on 
to Western Washington. She graduated from Bellingham. At that time, they called it Bellingham 
Normal. And that was in 1940, because it was the same year that Jack and I graduated from high 
school. And then Dan, Dan went to Olympia High School and graduated from there. And Al 
went to Olympia High School, and didn't care for it too much, so he transferred to Yelm High 
Page 5 of 30 
 
School and graduated from there. Then we were kind of in the middle there. So, he graduated 
from Yelm High School, and Dan and Al both went on to college, and both have master's 
degrees in education. And they're both school teachers. And Mary had a bachelor's degree in 
education, and she taught school.  
 
Winona Weber  08:45 
That was your sister?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  08:47 
Yes, she's one that died.  
 
Winona Weber  08:48 
Yeah. That's pretty [?good?].  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  08:51 
She had a BA from Western. She only taught school for about three years, so, and... Then she 
went into-- well, she didn't have a very good experience in her teaching, so she went on to the 
same business college that I did in Bellingham, because there was an excellent teacher there that 
taught shorthand and typing, and she had never appeared to be able to type [laughs], and I had to 
do all her typing. So she-- when she decided she wasn't going to teach anymore, she went to that 
same business college and took shorthand and typing from my old teacher. And then she later 
went to work in the Portland area office of the BIA. 
 
Winona Weber  09:47 
Oh, I noticed now, is this right? You got married when you were 26? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  09:56 
Yeah. [Inaudible] '49?  
 
Winona Weber  09:59 
Yeah. I was just--  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  10:00 
[?Looks like?] 25. 
 
Winona Weber  10:01 
--checking my dates, there.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  10:02 
Twenty five. 
 
Winona Weber  10:03 
Yeah. When you considered a lot of Indian women, that's a pretty old marriage date. Well, you 
know, my mom got married when she was 17, and your mother got married when she was 18. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  10:18 
Page 6 of 30 
 
Well, I've worked a lot, I don't know. I think people did think I was kind of "over the hill," but... 
[They laugh.] Old to be getting married. But... 
 
Winona Weber  10:29 
You're only over the hill when you think you're over the hill, I think.  
 
Winona Weber  10:32 
Personally, that's my philosophy. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  10:33 
But I had worked... I got my first job, let's see, I think-- was I still 18, or 19? Somewhere around 
in there, and then I was-- I got a civil service appointment, you know, when I was 19. I took that, 
you know, examination, civil service exam and-- right after high school. No, it must have been 
about [?six?]. No, remember when that was? I think was right after high school, and I had a real 
high score, and the first offer I had was to go back to Menomonie with the BIA in Wisconsin. 
And I was just, you know, really very young. And they said-- different ones said, "Oh, you don't 
want to go back there. You'll get your nose frozen off, 'cause it's so cold back there!" [laughs]. 
So I turned that one down. I just-- and my mother says, "That's too far away from me, anyway." 
So then my next-- in the meantime, I'd worked temporarily on my job that I got from when I was 
in business college, was down at the Tulalip Agency. And then in the meantime, then my name 
was-- came up again for an appointment in Warm Springs, Oregon as a junior clerk, 
stenographer. And so I took that one, and I took the place of a male junior clerk, stenographer, 
who went into the service, World War II. 
 
Winona Weber  12:16 
Yeah, that would be about then, wouldn't it? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  12:19 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Winona Weber  12:20 
1941-42, if you were about 19. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  12:22 
Yeah. I think-- let's see, the war started in '41, and I went to Warm Springs right immediately 
after. It must have been January '42. Because I had [laughs] appendicitis, and I-- my mother 
wanted me to have that operation before I went to Warm Springs. So I had that before I went. 
And then I was just barely, like, two weeks out of the hospital, and then I had to go.  
 
Winona Weber  12:51 
Did you have appendicitis? Did you have an attack type thing?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  12:56 
Well, it was kind of-- well, it was bothering me. Yeah, I had several-- you know, it wasn't severe 
as it could have been, but she thought as long as I was going away from home, that I better have 
that operation before I left. And I had it at the Cushman Hospital. 
Page 7 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  13:12 
[Inaudible.] Did you have any family down in Warm Springs?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  13:19 
No, not really. My mother-- there was someone there whose last name was Smith, but-- and I 
asked them if they were related, you know, but they weren't. 
 
Winona Weber  13:37 
Yeah, there's a lot of Smiths. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  13:38 
'Cause the Smiths-- it's, I guess, a common name too. And there were a lot of Smiths down there, 
but they were not related to us. My grandfather was white. My mother's father was white.  
 
Winona Weber  13:52 
Oh, well, that's where you came from the Smith, then. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  13:57 
Uh-huh. 
 
Winona Weber  13:58 
How did you get settled in when you first moved in down there? You didn't have a-- didn't have 
any family. Did you know anybody down there?  
 
Winona Weber  14:08 
Yeah, but you didn't have to cook them.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  14:08 
Yes, one of our very best friends, this Donna Mae Courville from Muckleshoot, was working 
down there. And I lived-- we lived-- they had an Employees Club for single people. And so I had 
a room there, and it was a nice place, you know? And we had our meals provided. We paid for 
them, of course.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  14:36 
But Donna Mae was one of my very best friends at the time anyway, although when I accepted 
the appointment, I didn't realize that's where she was working. So it worked out real well, and 
she introduced me around and kept me from getting homesick. 
 
Winona Weber  14:53 
Yeah, that's nice, when you have someone there.  
 
Winona Weber  14:56 
I was just trying to think. A lot of people I know, you know, they-- they're raised on-- in one 
reservation or in one area, and they don't-- they kind of don't want to leave there, you know? 
They-- they'll do everything they can to stay there. What do you think helped you, that you could 
Page 8 of 30 
 
say, "Yeah, I'd like to take that Warm Springs job." Do you think you were a little more 
independent thinking, or...? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  15:32 
Probably, yeah. I think I started displaying my independence when I was about a junior in high 
school.  
 
Winona Weber  15:41 
Oh, really, what did you do?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  15:43 
I don't know. I just, well, was more vocal. You know, my-- I was younger. I started school when 
I was five and a half. I was born in January, and I started when I was five and a half. So I had 
difficulty, you know, in the lower grades. And then my mother and my brothers, well, they all 
protected me -- and my dad, too. I was spoiled, and they kept saying I was the littlest one, and -- 
that was before my other two little brothers come along -- and so, they-- I was quite sheltered, I 
think. And it wasn't until I got to be, like-- well, they were always afraid I'd be discriminated 
against or hurt, you know? And, you know, have my feelings hurt. But I kind of didn't feel that 
way, myself. I was willing to try things. And if somebody did make, like, a racist remark or 
something, I would just either totally ignore them, or I would, you know, ask them what they 
meant by that. And then they'd back down and say, "Oh, but you're different" [laughs].  
 
Winona Weber  15:43 
Yeah, not used to them talking back. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  17:13 
I think that's that independence that my father-- he was, you know, very straightforward.  
 
Winona Weber  17:21 
They didn't-- how was your mother? Was she that type of person, you know, straightforward, or 
was she the more typical sort of retiring Indian? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  17:32 
Well, she was. She was very gentle, and-- almost to the point where people walked over her. And 
she was very kind. She could see good in everyone, regardless of, you know, what their-- what 
they did, and taught me a lot about compassion for someone who is down, you know? And even 
to the point where someone had stolen her car and ran it. In fact, it was found down on the 
Taholah reservation [laughs]. This is going on your table [laughs]. 
 
Winona Weber  18:22 
Yeah, [laughs] that's OK.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  18:24 
And, you know, it was just, you know, the only transportation they had. And the car was located 
down there, burned out, you know, the oil and the gas, and someone had been living in the car. 
Page 9 of 30 
 
There was diapers and pots and pans and things like that. And they had the car towed home. And 
she would not press charges. 
 
Winona Weber  18:54 
Did she know who it was that took it?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  18:56 
Well, they-- yes, I think they did know. And she said, "Well," she says, "all I want is my car 
back." And we were aghast, because it was like two and a half weeks or so that they were 
without a car. And, you know, living out at Nisqually at that time was really remote, and it was 
during the winter months. So that's just an example of of how she was. So anyway, she was that 
kind of person, and everyone realized that. 
 
Winona Weber  19:36 
[Laughs] cutting off my circulation, there. 
 
Winona Weber  19:43 
Were you near the other Indians there, at Nisqually, or were you kind of separate from them?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  19:52 
Well--  
 
Winona Weber  19:53 
I never did find you guys' place when I was out in Nisqually, so I'm not [crosstalk].  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  19:57 
It's isolated, but in-- not isolated-- well, i-- isolated geographically, in that where the-- it's right 
on that Nisqually Reservation Road. It's the only house on that road, and it's right on the road. 
You probably went right by it. It's a [?old?], white house. But-- and we were kind of isolated due 
to the fact that we went to Olympia High School, and most of the others went to Yelm High 
School, like, you know, those on the upper part of the reservation. And they went to Yelm High 
School and [inaudible]. And there was another family in Nisqually that went to Olympia High. 
So those were the only ones that I really went to school with. I mean, others we would see, like, 
during the summer, and basketball. Well, at that time, it was baseball was real big. 
 
Winona Weber  20:57 
It still is. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  20:58 
At the baseball games, and that was... Or some of them, you know, we met and got acquainted 
with, and picked berries with, and hops with. 
 
Winona Weber  21:09 
Where did you go to grade school? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  21:11 
Page 10 of 30 
 
Lacey Grade School. That's just-- well, it's seven miles down toward Olympia. And Olympia 
High was [?on in?] town was another seven miles?].  
 
Winona Weber  21:22 
Yeah, I know where the old high school is. Who-- how many other little Indian kids were in your 
grade school classes? Were there very many, or [crosstalk]? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  21:35 
I think there was just our family and this Ike [?Lewis?], who was the son of Mary [?Christ?], and 
then his cousin, [?Wesley Bob?]. We were the only ones-- well, there were some others that 
were, well, they had a little Indian blood in them, the [?Hartmans?]. They were Nisqually.  
 
Winona Weber  22:02 
Yeah, I think I've heard that name. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  22:04 
And they were-- but they were about... I don't know if-- they were a quarter or less. I know at the 
time, I didn't think they [inaudible]. 
 
Winona Weber  22:11 
Didn't think they were anything? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  22:12 
No. 
 
Winona Weber  22:13 
[Laughs.]  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  22:14 
I mean, people said they were, but... And I know the one in particular did look Indian, but he had 
curly hair, so I didn't think he [inaudible] [they laugh]. Isn't that funny? 
 
Winona Weber  22:26 
I've got about three or four little nieces and nephews with really, really curly hair, just really 
curly. 
 
Winona Weber  22:38 
Did you have a favorite teacher when you were in grade school? Did you really like school when 
you were a little kid? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  22:43 
Yeah, uh-huh. I had several favorite teachers. My third grade teacher, I thought was beautiful. 
 
Winona Weber  22:49 
Oh yeah? Was she a real nice person? 
 
Page 11 of 30 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  22:54 
Uh-huh. But the fifth grade teacher was a male teacher, and he really understood us, I think. We 
really-- you know, he was my math teacher, and he was-- I think he taught me more about, you 
know, timetables and things like that that I probably wouldn't have been interested in otherwise. 
 
Winona Weber  23:23 
He was a good-- he understood the children real well. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  23:26 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Winona Weber  23:28 
That's nice. It's really important for a teacher, it seems like, for that age, to really get along well 
with children. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  23:37 
And then our principal, we really liked. And he was good with the boys, like with Jack and his 
friends. He'd get out and play marbles with them [they laugh]. So our grade school experience, I 
think, was pretty good. 
 
Winona Weber  24:01 
How did the other Indian children treat you because you were from Yakima, you know, you're 
different, a little? Did they give you a hard time? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  24:12 
Not too much. No. I'd say no, except that occasionally they thought that we thought we were 
better than they were [they laugh]. 
 
Winona Weber  24:25 
Oh, I see. [?Which wasn't true?] sometimes [laughs]. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  24:31 
And well, I mean, like, the the other family down below that went to high school, they were from 
Colville, and of course, they were different too, they were. But I think we didn't-- we didn't fish 
in the river, and I think they would have really been down on us if we had, because the family 
did. In fact, they blocked off the river. So the other-- the real Nisquallys, you know, were [?ready 
to?]...  
 
Winona Weber  25:10 
Yeah, they were kind of ticked at that, I'll bet. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  25:13 
Tried to-- at that time, they were trying to see how they could keep them off the river.  
 
Winona Weber  25:26 
The-- were most of the children that you played with whites, or...? 
Page 12 of 30 
 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  25:33 
I had-- [laughs] one of my best friends was Italian. They lived down over-- on railroad tracks. 
Her dad worked for the railroad, and they had a house right next to the railroad. I stayed 
overnight with her, and then the train would go by and everything. They lived that way for, I 
don't know, all their kids raised right there. And I just go, "How can you stand it?" She was a 
very good friend of mine, and I had-- well, it was a mixed, really mixed, group that I... In high 
school, I was really good friends with these Chinese girls. In fact, this other Indian girl and I both 
were. That-- they had a Chinese restaurant in Olympia. And then there were three kids in our 
class, two girls and one boy, that were brothers and sisters, and they were all different ages, but 
that was because their parents had sent them back to China for education and then back to the 
United States. And so one was somewhat older, one of the girls, and the boy was a little bit older. 
Then the younger one was where she should have been, you know, grade-wise. And the older 
ones lost a couple of years of going to school, you know, here in this country, then they went 
back to China. But, [?like?], when the older one was engaged to be married, they invited us to a 
baby sh-- not a baby shower, engagement shower. Marri-- what do you call it? 
 
Winona Weber  27:07 
Bridal shower. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  27:08 
Bridal shower [laughs].  
 
Winona Weber  27:09 
Something like that [laughs].  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  27:10 
So that kind of was an unusual thing for me. My mother was all [?a-twit?].  
 
Winona Weber  27:17 
Oh, how come? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  27:17 
'Cause, you know, I don't know if they were well to do Chinese people and lived in town, up near 
the Capitol building. So that was kind of a big experience. 
 
Winona Weber  27:29 
Oh, I'll bet. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  27:31 
And they had the all wealthy Chinese people from, you know, like Seattle. And the man she was 
marrying was from Montana, Butte, Montana. I think he had a big Chinese restaurant in Butte, 
Montana. So that was unique for us.  
 
Winona Weber  27:53 
I'll bet. That's unique for anybody.  
Page 13 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  27:55 
You were the only Indian there. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  27:55 
In fact, I saw, I saw two of them, one of the brothers and one of the sisters, at this 40th 
anniversary, our high school reunion. And none of the kids are in the restaurant business now. 
Their parents wanted them to take over their restaurant because they've had it for so many years, 
and it was a real nice place downtown. They didn't. So they just, you know, liquidated the 
business. But they're, again, like, at that 40th reunion, I was, outside of these kids that were 
Chinese, I was the only non-Indian there. The other Indian girl didn't go.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  28:50 
Mm-hmm, that went.  
 
Winona Weber  28:51 
You said "non-Indian." 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  28:53 
I was-- oh yeah, OK. I was the only non-- yeah. There was another family of Indians like ours, 
from Skokomish. I mean, there was one boy from a Skokomish family that came to Olympia 
High School. He didn't-- well, he and my brother were friends, and he did play football.  
 
Winona Weber  29:20 
[Inaudible?] If-- I was just thinking about that. How did how did you meet your husband, then?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  29:38 
Here in Seattle.  
 
Winona Weber  29:40 
What were you doing here in Seattle when--?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  29:42 
I was working.  
 
Winona Weber  29:46 
Where?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  29:48 
Let's see, at the bookstore. 
 
Winona Weber  29:56 
Which bookstore is that?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  29:58 
University Book Store.  
Page 14 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  29:59 
Oh, you were working at the University Book Store. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  30:01 
Mm-hmm.  
 
Winona Weber  30:05 
Was your mother still alive, then? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  30:08 
Yeah. 
 
Winona Weber  30:08 
 I forgot already how-- what happened. Dee dee dee dee, where's mother? There she is, 1968.  
 
Winona Weber  30:19 
Did you know any of your any of your grandparents very well? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  30:27 
Not that I can remember, really. 
 
Winona Weber  30:31 
Then you didn't have the large extended family that most Indians do. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  30:39 
The older brothers and sisters remembered. They liked their Grandpa Smith and our grandmother 
on my father's side, [?Kaya'?] [inaudible]. So what we get, you know, are the stories. Now, 
Grandpa Smith died, oh, probably, [inaudible] in about 1928, but even at that, I don't remember 
him. And my mother had that uncle, our-- [tape cuts]. 
 
Winona Weber  31:21 
Mm-hmm. Your mother's uncle? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:24 
My mother's half brother.  
 
Winona Weber  31:25 
Half brother.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:26 
He was born on Squaxin Island. Was her mother's child before her. 
 
Winona Weber  31:40 
Oh, her father was married twice, or...? 
 
Page 15 of 30 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:44 
Yeah.  
 
Winona Weber  31:44 
Oh, OK.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:46 
[Inaudible] no, he was the son of someone else.  
 
Winona Weber  31:52 
Oh, I see, yeah. Her mother was the one.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:55 
Yeah.  
 
Winona Weber  31:55 
OK. They had different fathers.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  31:58 
Yeah. Yeah, he was Squaxin Island and Snohomish.  
 
Winona Weber  32:07 
And your mother... Then you-- did you have much contact with with your relatives, you know, 
like, your mother's brother, or your-- and your father's-- what, did he have brothers and sisters? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  32:35 
He had sisters. And then, yes, we had a lot of contact with my aunt, which was her younger 
sister, three years younger, and she lived here in Seattle. We used to-- they used to visit us a lot. 
Then we always used to go to Yakima to visit our other relatives. My aunt, well, the two aunts on 
my father's side, were close-knit. And they were very concerned that, you know, we should keep 
up relationships. Plus, my mother's half sister lived in White Swan. And by the same token, you 
know, they were in close touch, too. That was her little sister. Her little-- she was somewhat 
younger than the other sister, the second one. 
 
Winona Weber  33:42 
Well, when you'd go to visit them, did you-- did your whole family pack up and move over there, 
or were maybe a few children at a time sent over to visit?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  33:53 
The whole clan would go. 
 
Winona Weber  33:56 
[They laugh] wow, I can imagine what that was like. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  34:00 
Page 16 of 30 
 
Yeah. We would go and stay overnight, or couple of days, or whatever. And three or four days. 
Sometimes we'd go berry picking, or-- you know, up in the hills. 
 
Winona Weber  34:19 
How would you get from Nisqually to White Swan? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  34:23 
In a car. 
 
Winona Weber  34:24 
Oh, really? How-- where would--? 
 
Winona Weber  34:26 
Where's that?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  34:26 
That was always the big joke. From Nisqually, my dad would go down to the gas station the 
night before and fill up the gas tank, and get up at 4:30 in the morning and run that car for an 
hour, warming it up [laughs]. We'd leave at 5:30. We used to laugh because he used to bring up 
half his gas warming up the car [they laugh]. He was real gruff, but very thorough, you know, 
and we always used to be amused at that. And we would pack our lunch, and they put blankets 
and what have you in the back. And so we were always riding way up in the-- almost level to the 
seat-- of the front seat [laughs]. And we'd have lunch at Lake Keechelus. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  34:44 
You know, as you go to Yakima, it's almost a dry lake now, except, you know, in the wintertime. 
There was a camping ground there and kind of a picnic area. And so we used to stop there for 
lunch, then go on. It was an all-day trip.  
 
Winona Weber  35:46 
Oh, man. What-- where would you go through the mountains? You had to across [crosstalk]-- 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  35:53 
There was an old highway. It's, well-- I don't think-- I can't remember, we'd go through Cle 
Elum. It's pretty much kind of like it was now, I think, except there was an old Highway. 
 
Winona Weber  36:07 
[Crosstalk] Snoqualmie?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  36:08 
Yeah. 
 
Winona Weber  36:09 
Was that when there was a lot of switchbacks? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  36:13 
Page 17 of 30 
 
Probably, yeah. There were several ways that they went, but I think the main one was 
Snoqualmie. That's where I remember.  
 
Winona Weber  36:22 
Yeah. Oh, boy. Tailbone gets tired, you know? No?  
 
Winona Weber  36:35 
OK, [?now it's just?] [inaudible].  
 
Winona Weber  36:41 
When when I was a little girl, I was always being farmed out, you know, to to my aunt or my 
grandmother or someone like that, you know? They'd say, "Oh, can 'Nona come stay with us?" 
"Oh, yeah, [inaudible]." I'd pack up my clothes and away I'd go, you know, and I'd get sent out to 
my aunt's place, you know, or or over to my grandmother's house, or to one of my uncles or 
something like that. That-- did you ever do that when you were a little girl much?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  37:12 
Um, not too much. We had one relative that wanted to keep me all the time. That was-- she lived 
in Bay Center. She was related to my dad somehow.  
 
Winona Weber  37:30 
Who was that?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  37:31 
Emma Lussier.  
 
Winona Weber  37:33 
Oh, yeah.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  37:34 
And she was my dad's cousin, I think. But my brothers used to call her Aunt Emma. And she 
used to want me to go home with her all the time. And I never wanted to go [laughs]. I was 
never-- I didn't-- never stayed away from my mother. And so the one time I did go, during the 
Fourth of July weekend, or week, or whatever, and she was going to keep me for a week. And 
she was, you know, one of these jolly women, and promised me all kinds of things to go with 
her, and I finally went, very reluctantly, and I lasted for three days. I couldn't make it from 
Sunday to Sunday. She had to bring me back home. She bought me watermelon and ice cream 
and candy and pop. But I just was homesick.  
 
Winona Weber  38:43 
Yeah, too homesick.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  38:44 
Went to a show. And just, you know, she did all kinds of things to entertain me, but I just had to 
get back home. She was kind of disappointed, too. They-- we're different, I mean, [?too?], they 
used to play cards at night and stay up until midnight and then sleep late the next day. And of 
Page 18 of 30 
 
course, that was not the way I-- you know, I went to bed early and got up-- I didn't get up too 
early, but I would get up, you know, fairly early. So that was kind of a little different. I'd be 
awake and they'd be asleep. And sleep, they'd sleep almost until like 11 o'clock, and here I was-- 
 
Winona Weber  39:28 
Wide awake, ready to go. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  39:30 
--with nothing to do, bored.  
 
Winona Weber  39:33 
Oh, yeah. How old were you when you did that? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  39:37 
Must have been about six years old. 
 
Winona Weber  39:40 
Yeah, that is kind of young to-- 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  39:43 
Or seven.  
 
Winona Weber  39:44 
--to go out like that. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  39:45 
And she tried to, you know, introduce me to people that she said were my relatives, cousins. I 
guess they were distant relatives, because they used to come to visit us every so often from-- at 
Nisqually, and we called each other cousins. 
 
Winona Weber  40:07 
Everybody is a cousin, it seems like. I don't know. I think I'm distantly related to the Lussiers 
somehow. I'm not sure. Through the [?Patees?], I think. So just about everybody is a cousin, 
[they laugh] somehow or another, you know? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  40:26 
That's what we usually say. If you can't figure it out, just call them cousin. My husband always-- 
 
Winona Weber  40:35 
Is your husband an Indian?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  40:37 
No, he's not.  
 
Winona Weber  40:38 
Does he have as much trouble as mine does with the kinship?  
Page 19 of 30 
 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  40:43 
Yes [laughs]. 
 
Winona Weber  40:47 
Yeah, my husband-- 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  40:48 
He gives up trying to figure out who is who.  
 
Winona Weber  40:51 
Who's related to who how, what.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  40:54 
Yeah. Well, of course, my aunt, the one that was my mother's half sister, had, like, seven kids, 
and Aunt Louise had four or five kids, and Aunt Susie had five or six, you know. And so, and we 
all, you know, there's just a lot of cousins that... My other aunt, Annie, she's kind of-- what do 
you call it? Well, she was an aunt by marriage, and she's in that picture. She had 13 kids. 
 
Winona Weber  41:41 
Oh boy. Yeah, I've got an aunt like that. I've got an aunt that has about [inaudibile] 12. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  41:45 
You know, she does have-- and they all carry the same last name, that Olney [?name?]. And so 
there's-- 
 
Winona Weber  41:54 
Olney.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  41:54 
My mother-- my mother's sister married an Olney, and my dad married an Olney, but they're 
from two different families. I mean, there were about like six Olney brothers over in Yakima, I 
think. At least that many. So, I mean, we're married to two different families. So most of the 
Olneys over in the Yakima Valley are my cousins [they laugh]. 
 
Winona Weber  42:24 
Well, I've got six brothers, and they're all Mails, you know, so she-- we've got a pretty large 
bunch of Mails here, now. [Laughs] it's all my brothers got kids, you know, two or three kids 
apiece. One of my brothers has five. He even got them over in Colville. He was-- he lived with a 
Colville woman for, oh, shoot, at least three years, because they've got three children. And then 
he's got two little girls by a woman over here that he's with right now. So he's got five little girls. 
Man, that's too many. 
 
Winona Weber  43:13 
Do you get to-- oh, I know what I was thinking about, your husband. Did you raise all your 
children here in Seattle? 
Page 20 of 30 
 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  43:25 
Yeah. 
 
Winona Weber  43:28 
Do you have any of your family, you know, your brothers or sisters, here in Seattle? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  43:36 
Not now. My sister used to live here, but of course, she died. 
 
Winona Weber  43:40 
Uh-huh. That must have been nice. My mom was raised, you know, down at Taholah, and down 
at Tokeland, Bay Center, all those small, small towns. And she talks about how she was so 
lonely when she first came up here because she married my dad, who was from Seattle. Did you 
have any troubles like that when you first got married? Might not have because you were already 
living in Seattle.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  44:09 
No, unh-uh.  
 
Winona Weber  44:11 
How old were you when you moved to Seattle? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  44:19 
Maybe about, let's see, 22 or 23. Somewhere around in there, because I was down in Warm 
Springs for about two and a half years.  
 
Winona Weber  44:30 
Yeah, that would have been maybe about 21.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  44:31 
And I got transferred back up to Tulalip again. It was [inaudible]-- of course, during the war 
years. And my mother kind of wanted me closer to home. And so I took that job, then I got bored 
with it out there and quit.  
 
Winona Weber  44:49 
Tulalip still isn't that close to home. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  44:52 
No. Well, I didn't have transportation out there. I didn't drive at the time. And I didn't have a car. 
And plus, I think, like, you know, during the war years, people were doing-- you know, working 
in plants. And I had even wanted to go in the service, and was all set to go. And then my brother, 
or one of my brothers, was in the navy, and one was in the army. The one that was in the army 
was a prisoner of war. He was captured almost immediately after he went to Europe, and he 
spent 22 months -- that was Ben -- in a German prison camp. And was one of the few survivors, 
one Indian survivor in that whole... Well, of course, he ended up by being with some English 
Page 21 of 30 
 
soldiers and just a couple of Yanks. You know, they call them-- American soldiers, they called 
them "Yanks." He was one of the few remaining ones that survived. 
 
Winona Weber  46:01 
Must have been very hard.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  46:02 
And one of the fellas that he went through that prison camp with almost died on the ship coming 
home, but-- of TB. So they were-- and he was, I guess, had a little TB, too, in, you know, in his 
glands. And he-- they were all sent to the army hospital in Denver. I think it's Veterans Hospital 
Denver. Anyway, that's his buddy, the one that almost died, was hospitalized there. And his 
sister, his-- sent him-- I mean, his father sent the sister up there to Denver to be near him, 
because he was at death's door. And so Ben met her and married her. 
 
Winona Weber  46:15 
Were they Indians, did you say, or they weren't? That woman. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  47:07 
No, she was white. 
 
Winona Weber  47:08 
Oh, that's what I thought.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  47:09 
She was from Kansas.  
 
Winona Weber  47:10 
Oh, boy. That's a long ways away. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  47:11 
And her brother had been in the prison camp with Ben for those 22 months. But he survived. He-
- after he got back home, they both, you know-- 
 
Winona Weber  47:24 
Oh, man, I bet that was something, when he came home. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  47:25 
--back into-- oh, it was terrible. It was really, you know, I guess, unbelievable. And he was the 
kind of person that wouldn't tell a lot of things going on. He was one of these quiet people that 
didn't, you know-- I think if he had talked about it and got it out, it was-- might have been a lot 
easier for him.  
 
Winona Weber  47:52 
Did you say that that your brother Ben had a touch of tuberculosis, too?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  47:57 
Page 22 of 30 
 
Yeah, in the glands. And he was in and out of the VA hospital for, oh, three or four years after he 
came back, but it was eventually cured. 
 
Winona Weber  48:09 
Yeah, TB is hard to get rid of. My mom's-- my mom has it. It's flared up a couple times on her.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  48:20 
Oh, really? 
 
Winona Weber  48:21 
Yeah, she first went into the hospital with it in 1946 when my second oldest brother was born. 
Then she went into it when my brother Andrew was little, must have been in the 40s, late 40s. 
She went in when my-- and then she went in when I was 12. She had to go in to the hospital 
again for a few months. You know, complete rest. All she-- she said she was just so bored. All 
they did was just sit around and eat. That's all they did. They could-- they wouldn't let them do 
anything. She learned how to knit, and she learned how to do ceramics while she was in there 
[laughs] 'cause it was so boring. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  49:03 
Well, my sister-- yeah, my sister, when she came home from Chemawa, I think they said that she 
had a touch of TB or a spot on her lungs, and they came to take her to the hospital. My mother 
didn't want her to go to the hospital, so we were gone that day. And she had told them she didn't 
want her to go to that hospital, because, you know, it's, you know, the people that were really 
sick there. And she didn't think that Mary had that bad. She said she would treat her in her own 
way, and they wouldn't accept that. They said, "Well, we're coming to get her on such and such a 
day to take her to Cushman." And we weren't there that day. And she told them that-- they said, 
"Well, what would you do?" She said, "Well, I'll take her out in the berry fields and get her lots 
of sunshine and, you know-- 
 
Winona Weber  49:04 
Feed her good?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  49:27 
--feed her good, and [?cod liver oil?] and all that stuff. And so we did. They-- we weren't home 
that day that they came to get her. And so by fall, she was okay again. Now, whether or not, you 
know, what-- we don't know what would have happened otherwise. It was arrested or whatever. 
She never did have that.  
 
Winona Weber  50:30 
That's what happens. It just stops affecting you. Always have that bug in you, is the problem. 
Was-- could they have done that? Was it involuntary, you know, to...?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  50:43 
I think they did that. You know, some people that-- you know, of course, my mother, she just did 
not want her to go to the hospital. And I think had people resisted more, you know, they-- 
 
Page 23 of 30 
 
Winona Weber  51:03 
Might never. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  51:04 
--could have gotten away with it, but, I mean, she j-- she had told them, because that was one 
thing she was firm about. And she said if Mary was hospitalized, she would have probably gotten 
worse and not survived. 
 
Winona Weber  51:20 
Yeah, because there's a lot of really sick people in those-- that sanatorium. Was-- that was at 
Cushman, right?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  51:21 
Yeah. [Crosstalk.] 
 
Winona Weber  51:28 
Yeah. Did the kids come back from Chemawa sometimes sicker than when they left, when they 
went down? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  51:42 
Well, I think she may have gotten that, whatever that was, down there. 
 
Winona Weber  51:53 
Picked it up from someone down.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  51:55 
Because at that point we'd never had TB in our family. 
 
Winona Weber  51:59 
Oh, really? Boy, that's doing good. Lot of people I know had problems with TB in their family. 
Lost people, you know, lost their members of their family to tuberculosis. Gee, your family 
sounds pretty healthy, really.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  52:17 
Well, she was quite conscious of, like, taking us to the dentist, you know, regularly and making 
sure we were dressed properly to go, you know, going to school. We had to walk a mile down 
the road to catch the bus. And there were times when, well, like with Jack, in particular, he 
would give up things for me, so I'd have, you know, things. And some-- he'd make sacrifices. 
And sometimes his clothing wasn't adequate, and I know one time in particular, it was just 
pouring down rain, and we left home together, and I guess I ran on ahead or something, and he 
didn't come. And the bus driver said, "Where is your brother?" And I said, "He's coming." And 
we waited for him, and he had gotten drenched and decided to go back home, and-- because  he 
couldn't have stood in school all day, you know? 
 
Winona Weber  53:28 
No, being soaked. 
Page 24 of 30 
 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  53:31 
But she was very conscious of, you know, proper food and sleep and rest and clothing and all of 
that. That was-- so we were lucky.  
 
Winona Weber  53:46 
Yeah. Did you raise a lot of your own food there on-- in Nisqually?  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  53:54 
We raised potatoes and carrots. It was not very good farmland.  
 
Winona Weber  54:00 
Oh, I see. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  54:01 
But she always had a garden. And what else? Berries, raspberries... Those are the strawberries. 
 
Winona Weber  54:16 
Oh, yeah. Strawberries grow everywhere.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  54:19 
Gooseberry bush, couple of them. And what do you call those other kind of...? Loganberries.  
 
Winona Weber  54:28 
Oh. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  54:29 
We had one of those. 
 
Winona Weber  54:31 
Oh, I love loganberries. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  54:32 
And cucumbers. She always had cucumbers.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  54:35 
[Knocking] [laughter] Somebody's [inaudible]. 
 
Winona Weber  54:38 
Someone else is trying to-- really? Gee, that's weird. There we go. That's OK. 
 
Professor  54:52 
[?Well?], you need a break from a tough interview. 
 
Winona Weber  54:54 
[?Always.?] 
Page 25 of 30 
 
 
Professor  54:55 
I remember that John Lennon had that song about how hard it was with people always 
interviewing him all the time. 
 
Winona Weber  54:59 
Uh-huh. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  55:02 
This is the first time I've ever been.  
 
Winona Weber  55:03 
Oh, really? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  55:05 
[Laughs.] 
 
Winona Weber  55:05 
Oh, you've got a lot to say. I don't know why. 
 
Professor  55:07 
What is it for? 
 
Winona Weber  55:10 
[Crosstalk]-- 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  55:10 
It's a Indian-- well, it's a historical-- 
 
Winona Weber  55:13 
Part of a historical [crosstalk].  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  55:14 
--Washington State historical thing, but there's a section on Indian women, I guess.  
 
Winona Weber  55:20 
Yeah, I'm interviewing Indian women. 
 
Professor  55:24 
Is it-- I mean, is this-- you've got some [?banking?] to do this from a historical [inaudible]?  
 
Winona Weber  55:28 
Mm-hmm, yeah. Washington Women's Heritage Project. If-- ah, [?oh, that's European?]. 
 
Professor  55:38 
Picture of Meher Baba.  
Page 26 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  55:41 
Meher Baba? 
 
Professor  55:41 
Meher Baba. 
 
Winona Weber  55:43 
Who is he? 
 
Professor  55:44 
He's an Avatar. It's a god in human form, [inaudible]. 
 
Winona Weber  55:47 
Yeah.  
 
Professor  55:51 
You don't believe that? You don't believe a simple thing? I don't know, people today are so 
skeptic. 
 
Winona Weber  55:57 
Was your family very religious? Did your mother, you know, take you out to church every 
Sunday, or...? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:06 
Yeah, she was a convert to Catholicism.  
 
Winona Weber  56:11 
Oh, I see. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:12 
My dad started out as a Shaker.  
 
Professor  56:16 
What's that, Shaker? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:17 
Shaker Church, Indian Shaker Church.  
 
Winona Weber  56:21 
Yeah, [?just about every?] reservation has a Shaker Church.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:25 
In fact, Atwin Stockum, his uncle, was one of the originators. 
 
Winona Weber  56:28 
Page 27 of 30 
 
Oh, that-- yeah, Atwin Stockum. I love that name.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:32 
I have a picture of him in there.  
 
Winona Weber  56:34 
Just like Scanewa.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:35 
Scanewa, yeah.  
 
Winona Weber  56:36 
And Iyall Wahawa. Those were all Indian names, weren't they? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  56:43 
Mm-hmm. Iyall used to be spelled I-dash-Y-E-L-L. 
 
Professor  56:45 
Well, maybe I should get goin' so you can get this down on tape [?if you're gonna?] discuss it all. 
 
Winona Weber  56:50 
Well, the tape's been running.  
 
Professor  56:51 
Oh, you are? The tape is running now? 
 
Winona Weber  56:52 
Yeah. 
 
Professor  56:53 
Oh, you got me on it, now. [They laugh.] 
 
Winona Weber  56:56 
Have to give him a release form, too [they laugh]. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:01 
OK, see you later. 
 
Winona Weber  57:02 
I didn't mean to kick him out. I don't care whether he's here. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:06 
I'll shut the door. 
 
Winona Weber  57:07 
Yeah, go ahead and shut it. 
Page 28 of 30 
 
 
Winona Weber  57:10 
Oh, boy.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:16 
He didn't realize that... 
 
Winona Weber  57:19 
No, he didn't [laughs]. He's the one that gave me a 3.8 in my-- in algebra. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:26 
Oh, really?  
 
Winona Weber  57:27 
Yeah, I deserved a 4.0. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:29 
Oh [they laugh] I see. 
 
Winona Weber  57:33 
I noticed that your father's father and his uncles all have Indian names. Is that right? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:42 
Mm-hmm, yeah.  
 
Winona Weber  57:43 
I'm just taking that, you know, just from the sound of them. Why do you think he didn't? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  57:51 
Well, I don't know. He always... I mean, he believed, you know, he was a full blood and 
everything, but he always had short hair. He believed in Indian religion-- 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  58:09 
--and all of that, but I don't know. I think at the time, he may have been one of the early what he 
thought was progressive. And there again, you know, was dedicated to Indian rights, you know, 
like the Cowlitz claim, and preserving your identity. But he also believed in education, you 
know? I mean, he wasn't content to-- well, he wanted to keep the old ways, but he wanted to-- 
 
Winona Weber  58:10 
Yeah, he was a Shaker.  
 
Winona Weber  58:16 
He wanted to adopt some of the new ones.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  59:00 
Page 29 of 30 
 
--at the same time, to move ahead, yes. He felt the only way we could do it was through 
education. 
 
Winona Weber  59:12 
So both your mother and your father really urged you to get a good education. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  59:17 
Because they, himself, not h-- he said, like, even though he had what he called, like, a third grade 
education, he improved himself quite a bit.  
 
Winona Weber  59:28 
He was sort of self taught. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  59:30 
Mm-hmm.  
 
Winona Weber  59:31 
Yeah, a lot of Indians his age, you know, the ones, they never seem to have much chance to get a 
lot of education. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  59:39 
Mm-hmm.  
 
Winona Weber  59:41 
Now, when your mother went to school, did she just decide that she didn't want to have any more 
school, or was she too old? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  59:52 
Well, I think with her stepmother, it was kind of, well, they definitely, I think, kind of lived that 
stepchildren's role, she and her full sister. And then when her younger half sister came along, 
then she was very definitely the center of attention, so the other two were kind of left to shift for 
themselves. And then by her-- both my mother and my aunt, they were really nice-looking young 
women.  
 
Winona Weber  1:00:41 
Yeah, they are.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  1:00:42 
My aunt was beautiful, too, only in a different way. My mother was beautiful in a more stately 
manner. 
 
Winona Weber  1:00:48 
Yeah, she really was.  
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  1:00:50 
Page 30 of 30 
 
And but my other aunt was equally as beautiful, but in a different way. A more-- well, they were 
both feminine, but Aunt Ora was kind of mischievous, you know, and-- but very, very ladylike 
and beautiful. But-- and as a result, they both married-- well, my mother married at the younger 
age. You know, she [?married?] [inaudible]. She had a lot of boyfriends, I understand [laughs]. 
 
Winona Weber  1:01:28 
Oh, I can imagine how [?big?] she did. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  1:01:30 
My [inaudible] dad was jealous of her [they laugh]. 
 
Winona Weber  1:01:34 
Oh, I could see where she'd have a lot of boyfriends. 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  1:01:37 
But she was kind. I mean, she was quiet and kind of more stately. And not to-- not want to go 
dancing and all the time. My aunt used to always be [inaudible] [they laugh]. Just never missed 
anything, she and some of the other girls that she went to boarding school with, you know?  
 
Winona Weber  1:02:00 
How old was she when she got married? Was she older? 
 
Lillian Iyall Chappell  1:02:03 
I can't remember. I think she was a little older, because she worked. We have those picture 
postcards that she'd write back, or she'd come back and visit. And in fact-- 
 